Adding extra presses

[Clive Jaques]

Hi Hal i remember some time ago a post about adding extra presses. We now need to add 2 more to the fleet. I think you called them phantom presses can you point me in the right direction.

Just installed the latest upgrade and it seems to work fine and the extra detail on the job sheet is just what the doctor ordered.

Clive

[Hal Heindel]

Hi Clive,

Business must be good, glad to hear you're expanding. Here are the links you were asking about. Let me know if I can fill in any blanks.

The Virtual Press (http://www.morningflighthelp.com/the_virtual_press.html)
Adding more Presses (http://www.morningflighthelp.com/adding_more_offset_presses.html)

I agree, the extra detail on the job ticket was a good idea. Thanks for suggesting it. Always nice when a good program can be made better.

Cheers,

[Clive Jaques]

This one has reared its head aging with us.
Is there an easy way to make carbonless paper available to the digital press as we keep being asked for short run 4 colour carbonless

thanks clive
ps the improvements to bookleting and the extra detail on job tickets is really working well for us

[Clive Jaques]

Hi Hal following the virtual press link all is ok untill step 4 the up arrow on our version just increases the quantity not number of colours. Then when i follow the rest of the steps it just replaces the 4 colour Komori and i loose that one altogether am i missing something it is nearly home time on a Friday afternoon :eek::mad::eek:
Clive

[Hal Heindel]

Is there an easy way to make carbonless paper available to the digital press as we keep being asked for short run 4 colour carbonless.

Here is a link to that (http://www.mymorningflight.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37), Clive. It's not as easy as the built-in functions, but currently the only way. If the demand for this get's more frequent, we'll have to take another look at it. So far, with 7,000+ downloads, we've only had a couple of requests for it.

Thanks for the PS. I love when it does that.

[Hal Heindel]

... following the virtual press link all is ok until step 4 the up arrow on our version just increases the quantity not number of colours.

Clive,

Virtual presses are a complex subject, high on my list of priorities for demo videos. Step 4 is supposed to do just that, increase the quantity, I mean. It won't let you add another press. Quoting from our on-line help, here is why:

"In Morning Flight's magical kingdom of make-believe, all offset printers are given three presses: a One-Color, a Two-Color, and a Four-Color. Three presses exactly. No more, no less.

Quick show of hands, how many small offset shops fit that mold and have that range of equipment? A One-Color press with a T-head, usually. A Two-Color press drafted into service for the occasional four-color run, maybe. In the real world, few small shops can afford a million-dollar Heidelberg.

So what is a virtual press, and why do you need one? In a nutshell, a virtual press is an imaginary clone of a real press you have in your shop. The two share physical characteristics, but on the phantom press you use a different pay rate. And often, different plates as well. That's the main reason for having it. Same press, different type of work, different pricing."

I know what you're going to ask, Clive: "Why can't we have four presses, or five, or a dozen?" Fair question. After all, that's how the high-end systems are estimating. What's more, most can select the press the job should be run on, for the cheapest price.

I'm going to hate myself for admitting this, but Morning Flight has the same press-based capabilities not only built in, but already coded. All the data files you're presently using are set up for it.

Here is why it may never see the light of day. Press-based estimating is based entirely on Budgeted Hourly Rates, and after 35+ years of owning a print shop, I've learned to loathe BHRs. If we should some day release a press-based version, it will be with extreme reluctance. Parallel to developing Morning Flight (maybe as a result of it), I've become a firm believer in value-added pricing. CostPlus is not only broken, it can't be sustained in the internet age. If you'd like to read more, see my post on PrintPlanet (http://printplanet.com/forums/management-information-systems-enterprise-resource-planning-discussion/16733-budgeted-hourly-rates).

(Admin's Note: It pains me to admit it, but I caved. From V2010.3 on, all but the Free Edition of Morning Flight now include the ability to add user-defined presses, both offset and digital. See Adding more Presses (http://www.morningflighthelp.com/adding_more_offset_presses.html).)

Cheers,

[Robin]

Hello Hal,

I have just joined the forum, and this is my first post.

I have become fog bound with my Morning Flight. My problem relates to a characteristic of digital printers which was touched on in you correspondence with Clive Jaques, i.e. they handle different sizes and weights of paper at markedly different speeds. At least our Xerox Docucolor 250 does.

This effects the hourly cost rate. In our case it would require five additional virtual presses to accomodate all the speed variables.

I have looked at building everything as special products but this does not seem to allow much control over run time or press speed.

Is there something that I have missed or a work around that would help?

Regards,

Robin.

[Hal Heindel]

Hello Robin,

Welcome to the forum. As you pointed out, digital press speeds have only recently become a topic. That doesn't surprise me, considering how technology-driven this field really is.

There is currently no work around, which means you'll have to fly in the muck for at least a little while longer. Variable run times, on the digital Product side, do sound like a good idea and would be relatively easy to implement. I'm always mindful of keeping Morning Flight lean and free of unnecessary complexity, but I think in this case, complexity would actually be reduced because the upgrade would align digital more closely with offset. You've made your first post a good one!

I have looked at building everything as special products but this does not seem to allow much control over run time or press speed.

This is where the adjustment would have to take place, on the product side, not the press. And here you're precisely on the right heading and glide path. What I don't know is, how much variation in run time is there? For offset, the run factors are

WRN:IPHVeryEasy = 1.4
WRN:IPHEasy = 1.2
WRN:IPHDifficult = 0.8
WRN:IPHVeryDifficult = 0.6
This translates to 11, 12, 15, 18, and 24 minutes for 1,000 black letterheads (with 15 minutes for "Medium" corresponding to an IPH factor of 1.0). I suspect the variations would be more subtle for digital. If we do implement digital IPH factors, what should those factors be? Or, if that's difficult to pin down, what are your press speeds relative to size and weight?

Thanks for bringing this up, Robin. Let's see if we can get a consensus.

All the best,

[Keith]

First thing Hal, the latest improvements are great! I love that MF calculates cutting, includes the price and shows it on the ticket and the tracker. I noticed a couple of other improvements, but can't remember them.

Anyway, digital presses/copiers will run slower if it is anything but plain 8.5"x11" paper. GENERALLY, if you run 11"x17" or anysize card stock, the speed is usually cut in half. My digital press is rated at 32 ppm, so 11x17 is 16 ppm. So running a flyer 2-up doesn't save any time; in fact it probably adds cost because now you have to cut it in half. It will save cost if you have the same click charge for all sizes (common on most Xerox machines). Now, if you have one of those big expensive production class machines (like a Canon ImagePress, or Xerox Igen etc.) they will run at rated speed on any size or weight stock. But those machines are like four color Heidlebergs, a lot of shops dream of having one.

I hope this helps,
Keith

[Hal Heindel]

Digital presses/copiers will run slower if it is anything but plain 8.5"x11" paper ... Hope this helps.

It sure does, Keith. I'll walk a mile for one less keystroke (sorry, Camel), and so my first thought was, great, another button to push. But after tossing it around for a while, I think I've found a way to accommodate varying press speeds without "complexing up" the program:

On the press side, MF would now factor in press speeds when pricing is based on IPH and consumables, but ignore them when the press is set up for click charges. On the product side, we would add variable run times for digital, same as what's now available for offset. Except that with digital, the five settings on the slider would all be reductions. No increases in IPH to lower the cost for extra-easy runs. I'm guessing maybe

x 0.5
x 0.75
x 0.8
x 0.9
Normal
That's open for debate. With five settings, we'd have plenty of room to include increases. Not because there is such a thing, but to allow for downward price adjustments. It would also provide consistency, make everything work the same way. In that case, the range might be

x 0.5
x 0.75
Normal
x 1.2
x 1.5
Glad you like the refinements, Keith. Many have come from users, either by email or here on the forum, but some are actually the result of making the new screencasts. Surprising what you stumble over on your way to creating a demo.

For instance, there are two ways to edit quotes: By selecting Quote Price > Edit Quote from the Main Menu, or by selecting Quote Price > Quote Printing, then clicking the Rolodex button on the bottom. Either method will get you the same browse box.

While I was making the "Pricing Letterheads" video, the thought occurred to me that, if someone selected a customer with the Rolodex button at the top before clicking the Rolodex button on the bottom, why not load the browse box with just quotes from that one customer? Ditto for orders, of course. No big thing, granted, but just as big profits are little profits added up, so are product improvements.

Any ideas how we should set the digital IPH range? I would welcome your suggestions.

[Craig]

First thing Hal, the latest improvements are great! I love that MF calculates cutting, includes the price and shows it on the ticket and the tracker. I noticed a couple of other improvements, but can't remember them.

Anyway, digital presses/copiers will run slower if it is anything but plain 8.5"x11" paper. GENERALLY, if you run 11"x17" or anysize card stock, the speed is usually cut in half. My digital press is rated at 32 ppm, so 11x17 is 16 ppm. So running a flyer 2-up doesn't save any time; in fact it probably adds cost because now you have to cut it in half. It will save cost if you have the same click charge for all sizes (common on most Xerox machines). Now, if you have one of those big expensive production class machines (like a Canon ImagePress, or Xerox Igen etc.) they will run at rated speed on any size or weight stock. But those machines are like four color Heidlebergs, a lot of shops dream of having one.

I hope this helps,
Keith

Hal,
I don't know how you will handle this, I am on the opposite end of Keith. I have the big expensive Xerox Production Press, that single clicks for all sizes. Like Keith said it doesn't slow for heavy weights, and 95% of what I run is N-up on 12 x 18 sheets at 2400 iph.

I really don't see a change unless it would be to include an additional speed for 11x17 and up. For me I just use the 2400 iph speed.

[Hal Heindel]

Hi Craig,

I know from your posts on PrintPlanet that you're running the heavy iron, and the change wouldn't do anything while you're using click charges. It would only kick in if you switched to consumables. Even then, it would have zero effect as long as the product's run speed is set to Normal.

That's precisely what makes me think twice before adding buttons. On the surface, it can make MF more versatile. But each new button brings a new question. Not necessarily asked, but in our mind, wondering how the wrong setting could affect pricing. However, in this case, we're making digital products behave more like offset, so I think the proposed change is all good.

Speaking of buttons, when is somebody going to tell the geniuses who design TV sets that you don't need in excess of a hundred buttons, spread over three separate remotes, just to watch Jay Leno? Every time Terry and I sit down to decompress and she picks up one of the remotes by the wrong end, it takes me half-an-hour to

figure out which button she might have accidentally pushed
figure out which button to push to restore everything
Guys, for chrissakes, put a lid on it. Literally. Like they do with clam-shell type cell phones. On/off switch, volume control, channel selector, maybe a menu up front, and all the rest on the back. Under the lid. I know, they haven't thought of it all these years. Why should this year be different!

Just venting.

[Robin]

Hello Hal,
Adding IPH for digital presses could be difficult. I suppose the trick will be choosing the right fractional speeds. I'm in a similar situation to Keith and to give some idea of the variables, here are the print speeds by media weight for the Xerox DC250:

Weight 1 colour (black) ppm 4 colour ppm
A4 A3 A4 A3
64-105gsm 65 32 50 25
106-176gsm 65 32 25 12
177-300gsm 40 20 16 8

SRA3 is marginally slower and gloss finish, which we don't use, is half speed again. Our click rate is the same for all paper sizes 1.6c for black and 16c for colour.
Also, I was uncertain about your comment of ignoring IPH when click rates are set. I thought we would need both. Our costs are based on click rate and monthly rental which includes toner (our choice). I'm a bit confused here!

Regards,

Robin.

[Craig]

Guys, for chrissakes, put a lid on it. Literally. Like they do with clam-shell type cell phones. On/off switch, volume control, channel selector, maybe a menu up front, and all the rest on the back. Under the lid. I know, they haven't thought of it all these years. Why should this year be different!

Just venting.

WOW, thought you were going to pop a vein Hal! What makes me mad is when my girls "misplace" the remote. Wasn't it a bitch to have to get up off our lazy butts to walk over and change the knob on the tv? My god, how did we make it through all those years? :p

So to make sure I get this correct. If I choose a click charge the pricing is based solely on that and not hourly rate? I thought it was a combination of the two.

[Hal Heindel]

I was uncertain about your comment of ignoring IPH when click rates are set. I thought we would need both. Our costs are based on click rate and monthly rental which includes toner (our choice). I'm a bit confused here!

"Nothing is as easy as first anticipated," one of the laws of the eponymous Edward Murphy. This is turning into a more complex issue than I expected. And you're right, Robin, we will have to bring BHRs back into the mix.

So to make sure I get this correct. If I choose a click charge the pricing is based solely on that and not hourly rate? I thought it was a combination of the two.

It is, Craig. Which is why my first shot was a shot from the hip. Murphy's Rule of Accuracy: "When working toward the solution of a problem, it always helps if you know the answer." Obviously, I didn't. I would have realized that the initial approach wasn't feasible once I looked at the code.

The upshot is that the revisions are going to take some time and deeper thinking. I still believe we should go ahead, but in a careful, measured way.

Getting back to variable press speeds, thank you for submitting the rates for your Xerox DC250, Robin. That will help, at least as a guide to how machines similar to yours are rated. Yes, the conversion factors will be key. Fortunately, they won't be hardwired into the program. Like all Morning Flight factors, you'll be able to adjust them with the Wrench (tba).

Craig, how many girls?

[Craig]

Hal, all color printers and digital presses slow down to some extent or another. All devices are rated for 8-1/2 x 11 sheet. Mine happens to be 80 ppm Simplex. Cut it in half if you are Duplexing, or running 11 x 17 Simplex. Maybe this will be more understandable.
8-1/2 x 11 Simplex = 80 ppm
8-1/2 x 11 Duplex = 40 ppm
11 x 17 or 12 x 18 Simplex = 40 ppm
11 x 17 or 12 x 18 Duplex = 20 ppm

All digital boxes are like this, the next step back is what Robin pointed out and that is another drop in speed based on the gsm weight of the paper.

What about a combination of BHR and clicks? I know for a fact that my box cost me $32.00 per hour sitting idle 8 hours a day (thank God it doesn't sit idle). Would it make sense to use a combination like a modified press? For digital presses labor may be less a factor because it can run a job unattended for longer periods of time unlike a offset press. Saying that you still need to account for setting up a job, calibrating, aligning paper, loading and unloading paper oh and don't forget that little thing called a lease payment.

BTW 2 girls 9 and 13.

[Hal Heindel]

This thread has veered far enough off topic that I thought we needed to start a new thread and continue the discussion under Pricing Questions. See Digital Pricing and Run Speed (http://www.mymorningflight.com/forum/showthread.php?p=130#post130).

BTW, 2 girls 9 and 13.

Wonderful age, Craig. You're in for a treat.

My grandson, living in Los Angeles, and Terry's nephew, living in Las Vegas, have been spending their vacations with us at our summer house on Lake Ontario ever since they turned ten (occasionally travelling alone, shepherded by a friendly flight attendant). As they grew into their late teens and left girlfriends behind 2,000 miles away on the West Coast, their two-month stays began to gradually get shorter. Last year, it shrunk to barely two weeks.

Those were wonderful summers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4am2ESR7e0&fmt=18), and Terry and I treasure the memories. The really great thing about being aunts and grandparents is that when grandchildren start misbehaving, you can send them back. Just kidding, the summers flew by much too fast.

Enjoy those magical years, Craig.