Paper/Vendor Question

[Craig]

I think I may be in a pickle Hal. Many versions ago I had all my paper entered as In Stock. Now I would like to assign a Vendor to a paper so I know where to order the best price from. I know I can assign a vendor in the buy as needed paper, is there a way to do it with In Stock as well? Or is there a simple way to transfer In Stock to Buy as Needed? :eek:

Somehow I foresee many hours of manually transferring data :(

[Hal Heindel]

Craig,

That's one amazing crystal ball you have there! Pickle is right, there is currently no way to transfer paper from one category into another. The reason is file structure: In-Stock paper is stored in two separate files, one (STKFile.TPS) for the paper specs and prices, the other (STCFile.TPS) for color, quantity on hand, etc. Buy-As-Needed records are contained in just one file, SPSFile.TPS.

This wasn't an arbitrary decision. Rather than just post links, here are bits and pieces from morningflighthelp.com (http://www.morningflighthelp.com/HTML_Help/updating_in_stock_paper.html) and from the new morningfiles.com (http://www.morningfiles.com/problem_with_buy_as_needed_pap_2.html) Forum Archives:

From on-line Help:

"Something else that sets in-Stock Paper apart from the rest is the pricing of colors: They're all priced the same. There are pros and cons here. With just two prices (one for whites, one for colors), maintaining the paper file is a snap. Update Ivory ... and Canary and Blue and Pink are updated along with it. That's the good news. The downside is you can't have a higher price for dark colors. With in-Stock paper, that shouldn't be an issue. Dark colors are infrequent sellers, "Ladenhüter" (guardians of the store) in Germany, "White Elephants" (don't ask me why) in the States. Poor candidates for inventory in any language."

From the Forum Archives:

"Because Buy-as-Needed Paper uses a totally different file structure than in-Stock Paper, there is no easy, automatic way to transfer paper from one into the other. In-Stock entry is actually quicker because all the colors are wrapped into a single parent item. That not only cuts down on the number of items, but also on how many prices you need to enter: Just two, one for white and one for color. Contrast that with Buy-as-Needed paper, where each paper color has its own name, description, and price."

Now, could I write a utility to move paper between categories? Sure. But here's the problem. When you transfer paper from in-Stock into Buy-as-Needed, you also change pricing. That's because Buy-as-Needed insists on full boxes and reams, in-Stock allows partials. Say you're quoting 200 1-Color Letterheads. With in-Stock you're charging for 240 sheets, with Buy-as-Needed for a full ream of 500.

Changing categories is probably not the best way to approach your problem. Let me see what I can come up with over the weekend. (This being a Sunday morning, not much time left. Forgot about that!)

[Craig]

What I am really trying to accomplish is the ability to assign a vendor to a particular In Stock paper. In other words XYZ Paper company is my distributor for Cougar Text/Cover. This way I, or anyone else can tell which of our 5 distributors that comes from.

The other dream would be to print a shopping list that would tell me I need to order x-number of sheets of whatever paper from the appropriate vendor, but that might be asking too much.

[Hal Heindel]

Assigning a vendor to in-Stock paper is doable, Craig. I'll see if I can make that change when we upload the upgrade for the revised help files (need to point the forum link to the new Lounge). The Shopping List would also be modified to include the name of the vendor. As it is, the list can already be sorted by Date, Category, or Vendor.

It's a Sunday afternoon, my Buffalo Bills just lost to the San Francisco 49's, and we've got to stop working these hours, Craig!

[Craig]

The Shopping List would also be modified to include the name of the vendor.

Excellent, now if you could get that list to print totals needed for each stock, instead of each job. In other words if I have 5 jobs using 1000 sheets of 100lb gloss cover it will just tell me to order 5000 sheets, not print each job.:D

I know, I wouldn't be happy with a new rope!;)

[Hal Heindel]

How can I say no, Craig, with Christmas just around the corner. I'll see what I can do. I suspect it will have to be an additional list, not a modification of the one we use now.

And here I thought I might be running out of things to do!

[Craig]

And here I thought I might be running out of things to do!

Thanks for the laugh!:D

[Hal Heindel]

Craig, half of what you were asking for is done. The new setup files were uploaded this afternoon. All four paper categories now include the vendor. Let me know if this works for you.

Reworking the shopping list is number three on our to-do list. Updating the various help files and rewriting the user manual to reflect all the improvements in version 2008.3 is number one, with a change to the booklet module being number two.

I'm not happy with the way inserts work. Nothing major. Just think it's too automated and can be improved. We'll probably end up with a button that lets you specify "this is an insert", instead of automatically designating it as an insert when the page size is smaller than that of the booklet.

Any thoughts on that?

[Craig]

Perfect, I will download ASAP!!!

[Clive Jaques]

Hi Hal happy new year i think the vendor tag is a good one. The insert mod also sounds ok. If it is possible can you enable the (pad) option in finishing when you produce an NCR job as i am unable to find a way of setting this and i am having to write it on the job ticket :cool:

[Hal Heindel]

Hi Clive,

All the best for the New Year to you as well.

I think I know what you're looking for. The reason padding doesn't show up for carbonless forms is because it's already included in the price. Enabling a padding option in postpress would charge for it twice. On the other hand, you probably want to keep your production people from sending out carbonless sets unpadded, and I know how that goes :( "Anybody see where it says padding on the job ticket? ... show me where it says padding ... told you so!"

If I'm right on this, we can simply add a "Padding (included)" line for carbonless sets under Postpress, marked N/C. Let me know.

[Clive Jaques]

as usual you hit the nail square on the head a long as it says it on the ticket and the quantity in each pad then theres no argument. Thanks and look forward to the fix. Its these annoying little complaints from the shop floor that makes life so worth while. :D:D:D:D
When did you last issue an update on the booklet section as mine is still mk1 but working well.
Thanks Clive

[Hal Heindel]

It's these annoying little complaints from the shop floor that makes life so worth while.

Clive, that's two nails hit on the head today! :)

Glad the original Booklet Module is working well for you. The new one, uploaded yesterday afternoon, is even better. I wasn't happy with how inserts worked, and Craig brought up the issue of portrait vs. landscape. Both have been resolved. See http://www.mymorningflight.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32

In the original version, the program decided what was and was not an insert. If it was an envelope or a carbonless form, it was an insert. If it was smaller than the booklet itself, it was an insert. That actually wasn't the problem. What annoyed me was that whenever I changed an insert back to a signature, I had to manually figure out the product size. Keep the signature a millimeter too small, and it stayed an insert.

I don't tolerate stupid software well, my own included, and that got old in a hurry. In the new version, you select beforehand whether it's an insert by ticking the check box shown in the attachment. If you untick the box, the program automatically snaps to the product size appropriate for the book size and trim.

I'll let you know when the padding fix has been coded.

[Clive Jaques]

I think i must be getting to old for this i have forgoten where to go to download the update :rolleyes:

[Hal Heindel]

Clive, always trust the Lounge: http://www.mymorningflight.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25

Ok, those links weren't there yesterday. After your post, I copied them from one of the announcements.

[Keith]

If I may chime in....

I like the padding fix. It would help my part time guy as well. It amazes me how much he pays attention to those job tickets (which is a good thing). Since I take in the orders, I guess I don't really pay attention to the ticket. It's more like a hey-dummy-don't-forget-about-this-job ticket for me. I noticed the cutting is the same way. MF automatically adds in the charge so when I would put cutting into postpress (so it will show up in the job tracker); I noticed I was double charging. My solution was to go into My Shop and lower the price of cutting so when I add it in postpress it brings the cutting charge to my normal level. And if I forget to add cutting, there is still something there that MF automatically calculates so I don't totally loss my ass. It turns out to be a win, win, win situation - MF still auto calculates, my press guy has something to remind him to take the job to the cutting room (I assume he has enough common sense to determine the amount of cuts) and I have something that shows up in the job tracker. But it would be nice if MF would automatically mark the cutting box in post press without putting an extra charge. Or if I could just check the cutting box and MF would automatically put it on the job ticket in postpress (along with the amount of cuts) without charging so it will show up in the job tracker. Are any of those suggestions good, even feasable? Ooooorrrr, I am not using MF correctly at all. That's a good possibility. :D:D:D

Sorry for the long-winded post,
Keith

P.S. It dawned on me a few weeks ago that, I don't think I can run my shop without Morning Flight. Seriously.

[Craig]

But it would be nice if MF would automatically mark the cutting box in post press without putting an extra charge. Or if I could just check the cutting box and MF would automatically put it on the job ticket in postpress (along with the amount of cuts) without charging so it will show up in the job tracker. Are any of those suggestions good, even feasable? Ooooorrrr, I am not using MF correctly at all. That's a good possibility. :D:D:D

Maybe not such a bad idea, more information is better than not enough! One would hope that an employee would understand a job need to be cut (trim marks should give it away)...but you never know.

[Hal Heindel]

It dawned on me a few weeks ago that I don't think I can run my shop without Morning Flight. Seriously.

Thanks, Keith. Music to my ears on a cold January morning. And no, you're not using the program wrong. On the contrary, that's some pretty creative tinkering under the hood.

After Clive's post, I began to wonder whether it wouldn't be a good idea to list all the included bindery on the job ticket, not just the padding of NCR sets. Now I'm convinced. I'll work on the revision as soon as I'm done with the booklet video I'm currently working on. Quote Sheets and Acknowledgments should probably stay as is, to prevent questions from the "inquiring minds" of customers.

Speaking of videos, any suggestions on which areas of Morning Flight should get demos first? I'm thinking

Introducing Morning Flight
Setting up My Shop
How to make Estimates
Quoting Digital
Working with Merchandise
The Virtual Press
in that order.

[Craig]

The order for the video's makes sence to me.

[Clive Jaques]

Looks like i opened a can of worms on this one but i think the addins will be a great help on the shop floor.
running order for the video looks good to me to but is there a section on how to make money from printing without letting customers into your life :rolleyes::D:D

[Hal Heindel]

Yeah, guys, is there? Let me know, because if there is, I might consider reopening the Unitac print shop ...

Naw, I love this job!

[Clive Jaques]

Hi Hal just come accross this one. When we print A4 sheets on the digital press we print them 2 up A3 to save on cost and time. But if i set a book up to print 2 up it doubles the number of pages for each section you print 2 up so a 4 pp becomes an 8 pp and so on. Have i missed something here or have i just found you more work?
Clive

[Hal Heindel]

Your post couldn't have come at a better time. I'm just finishing up the video on the Booklet Module, where page counts are dealt with in some detail. The short answer to your question is, yes, the program is doing what's it's supposed to. See http://www.mymorningflight.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14

Doubling the page count when you double the x-up is more critical with offset than it is with digital. But even there, it matters at the bindery end if the booklet is saddlestitched or perfect bound. With any other type of binding, imposition is less of an issue in the digital world, seeing there are no plate or setup costs.

If Craig is listening, maybe he'll come in on this. He's seriously into digital, and I know he's using Fusion Pro Desktop as his impositioning and Variable Data Publishing tool (On PrintPlanet, he says it's the best $500 he ever spent).

See, Craig? I'm trying to keep up.:cool:

[Clive Jaques]

Hi Hal thanks for the quick reply, looks like its back to pen on job ticket for the printing for the moment :):):)

[Hal Heindel]

Clive, reading between the lines, would that "pen on job ticket" involve spelling out the number of booklet pages on each bookpage job ticket, in addition to the page count that's now showing on the booklet job ticket?

[Craig]

Hal, I will chime in now and add to Clive. I understand when running booklets on a 40" offset press why you would want the booklets to impose the way MF is currently doing it. But I think Clive (I assume) and myself are only running a 2 up press or with digital printing, and a smaller bookletmaker (mine is a Watkiss Vario collater with bookmaster/trimaster pro).

When I run a 5.5 x 8.5 saddle stitched book I will impose 2 up repeating the image on the 11 x 17 or 12 x 18 sheet, if I need 100 books I run 50 sheets of each page, guillotine trim them to 8.5 x 11 and run them through the collator/bookletmaker.

Maybe there could be a imposition check box or something for those who repeat the same spread vs the way MF is currently doing it with multiple signatures on the same page.

Yes Hal Fusion Pro Desktop is working very well, but it's still not as great a deal as Morning Flight!!!!!

[Hal Heindel]

Craig,

I think you're probably right about that checkbox for imposition. I'll put it on my to do list.

What I still can't understand is why, for a 5.5x8.5 booklet printed by offset, you're running the same 8.5x11 4-page booksheet 2-up on 11x17, instead of running an 8-page signature. I can see where it makes no difference with digital, but even on a small offset press, you would save half the plates and half the setups, with exactly the same total run time. And you still wouldn't have to cross-fold. Once the job leaves the press, the remaining steps are identical: cut the signatures in half and feed 8.5x11 sheets into your bookletmaker.

You'd have to be a little more careful with imposition, making sure four front pages are backed up properly instead of only two, but with Fusion Pro Desktop (or even an old-fashioned paper dummy), isn't that a cakewalk? What am I missing here?

[Craig]

OK, using the current MF imposition logic, I need to quote a 12 page 5.5 x 8.5 self cover booklet and I want to run it 2 up on 11x17 press sheet, it can't be done. I only have an option for 8 and 16 pages, the third signature throws it for a loop. Unless I am missing something, the only thing I see is to make 2, 2 page inserts??? :confused:

[Hal Heindel]

Craig, I see where you're going with this. Instead of yet another button, what if inserts could be run as 4-pagers in saddlestitched/perfectbound booklets? In other words, when you run a regular content page 2-up, it doubles the page count. When you run it as an insert 2-up, it would leave the page count at four, but cut the run quantity of the insert in half. About as elegant a solution as I can think of.

In your present scenario, the 12-page booklet would now consist of either three 4-page inserts, or one 4-page insert and one 8-page signature. When you want run everything as 2-up step/repeat, you designate all the contents as inserts (the cover works that way now - can't have an 8-page cover). Otherwise, go with conventional booklet imposition and enter as much content as you can as traditional signatures.

The reason inserts are currently 2-pagers, even for saddle/perfect books, is because they're usually reply cards with just a flap portruding into the opposing pages. I see no reason why even those inserts couldn't be treated as 4-pagers. After all, the page count mainly affects bindery costs, and an insert consumes as much time and effort as a regular signature. Sometimes more.

Making that change would significantly increase the flexibility of the program, without any serious downside. And we wouldn't need another button. You know how I like to keep things simple. For cousin Mel. With this much flux, maybe the "How to Estimate Booklets" video shouldn't have been the first demo on my list. :(

BTW, Morning Flight would have envisioned your 12-pager as one 8-page 11x17 signature and one 4-page 8.5x11 cover, printed 2-up on 11x17. And yes, you're right, it's a super deal!

Stay warm in Ohio, Craig. We're going back into the freezer here in New York!

[Craig]

So are you saying I should include a cover/back on all the books even if it is a self cover?

[Hal Heindel]

Not neccesarily, Craig. Only if it evens out the page count on saddlestitched/perfect bound booklets.

Spiral/Wire/GBC books are unlikely to ever be self-cover, so there you'll always want to include covers. That's because more than the page count comes into play. For one thing, if you run the cover 2-up, MF assumes you're printing the front and the back cover on the same sheet, and consequently disables the entry box for the back cover. With Offset, why make two sets of 4C plates when the press is large enough to include both covers on a single set of plates?

What are your thoughts on making all saddle/perfect inserts 4-pages? I've gone over it again and can't find any pitfalls.

[Craig]

Is there any difference in the price between an insert and a content? In other words will 4 inserts be priced the same as 1 content page, if I am using the current pricing structure?

If the prices are the same then I don't think a change is necessary, the proper structure of pricing a booklet may just need to be clarified for the thick skulled folks like me.

[Hal Heindel]

... will 4 inserts be priced the same as 1 content page, if I am using the current pricing structure?

I wish it were that simple. Accounting for all the variables in booklet pricing is as sure of a successful outcome as nailing Jello to a tree. In broad strokes, though, here is what it looks like:

Bindery costs are primarily determined by the page count. Doesn't matter whether it's a signature or an insert. Other factors enter into it, such as cutting if an insert is run 2-up, or cross folding if a saddle/perfect signature contains more than four pages. But mainly, it's the page count.

Printing and paper costs are determined by the individual price sheets. Say you're quoting on 1,000 8.5x11 saddlestitched booklets. For a 1-up, 4-page signature, we charge for 1,000 11x17 booksheets. For a 2-up, 8-page signature, we charge for 1,000 17x22 booksheets. For 1-up, 2-page 5x7 postcard inserts, we add the price of 1,000 5x7 postcards. For 2-up, 2-page 5x7 postcards, we add the price of 500 7x10 postcards, plus cutting. Morning Flight automatically consolidates paper and ink costs. If two or more signatures use the same paper, and the total quantity leads to the next bracket, paper costs are charged in that bracket.

What I'm proposing is this: Keep signatures as is. Ditto for Spiral/Wire/GBC inserts. Inserts for saddle/perfect, however, will now be counted as four pages instead of two. That mainly affects bindery costs. There is no change in the cost of printing.

For a 1-up, 4-page 11x17 insert, the price would be for 1,000 11x17 booksheets. For a 2-up, 4-page saddle/perfect insert, we step and repeat (just as we do now with saddle/perfect covers), charge for 500 17x22 booksheets, and add cutting. In other words, the count for inserts always stays fixed at two pages for Spiral/Wire/GBC, and four pages for saddle/perfect.

The rationale is that when we make signatures bigger, we want more pages. When we run inserts 2-up, we want to shorten the press run. It's unlikely we'd want two different inserts. But that, too, can be accommodated by increasing the count in the box circled on the attachment.

Seems to me that having a choice between running the same size bookpage as either a signature or an insert, with different results, will give us more options.

[Craig]

Clear as mud!:eek:

I am leaning more towards what you are proposing with the inserts for saddle/perfect binding. That seems like the most common sence approach.

Looks like I'll be digging the long john back out... high of 15 tomorrow!

[Clive Jaques]

We printers are but simple folk :rolleyes:
but i think i am with Craig on this one seems more logical to me too but lets see how it works out when we start to use it:p

[Hal Heindel]

Thanks, guys. Guess we'll go with it then. The only visible change will be four pages instead of two for saddle/perfect inserts, and a slight uptick in bindery costs for those types of inserts.

[Hal Heindel]

If it is possible can you enable the (pad) option in finishing when you produce an NCR job as i am unable to find a way of setting this and i am having to write it on the job ticket.

Clive,

Here is the change you asked for. I think we ought to show any included postpress only on Job Sheets and Job Tickets, not on Price/Quote sheets that end up with the customer. Could lead to silly questions. Let me know. The number of parts for Carbonless Sets is already part of the description in the current version.

Inserts for booklets have also been redone. Should have version 2009.2 up on the printfire.com web site in a few days.